On Saturday 01 December 2007, steve.indepass wrote:
> --- In mlmsurvivorsclub@
> > All in all Amway/Quixtar is a very evil
> > organization bening run by a few hand-selected evil people who have
> > trapped hundreds of thousands of unspecting good people and
> > brainwashed them into thinking their only way out of a failed
> > lifestyle is Amway.
>
> I've only been on this forum for a little while, but I've already
> rubbed a few people up the wrong way by suggesting that the idea that
> 'evil MLM does awful things to perfectly healthy innocent, good
> people' is itself instrumental in how and why MLM keeps dragging
> people into its maw.
I think it was more that your wording was not quite as clear to everyone
as it could have been. I see your intent, but there was enough left
open that it was possible to read what you said and think that part of
the issue was that MLMs preyed on those with low self esteem.
Once I even made a gaff like that with my wording and, fortunately, by
then, people knew me well enough that someone asked me if I was,
indeed, saying something as stupid as what I wrote. At the time I
wrote it I remember I was either tired or angry and it came out as if I
were saying anyone who joined an MLM was lacking in certain
departments. The thing is, when I said that, I had been here long
enough to know many of the people here and to have met one or two and
know that isn't true. (I am here over issues with having lost someone
in an MLM and stay to help others and because I feel MLMs are one of
the truly evil organizations on Earth.) Someone called me on what I
said and I realized I had been very careless in my phrasing. I do
think that while in an MLM and listening to their brainwashing, one
loses critical thinking and that many of the drones are idiots -- not
because they don't have a high IQ, but because their thinking processes
have been remapped to prevent them from thinking. I have a personal
issue there because the MLM drones that can't think critically remind
me too much of an ex-fiancee, so I do have to admit that some personal
baggage led me to make the comments I did without clarifying.
So, just to try to help, people here are quite capable of understanding
when you've made a misstatement and that there was a disconnect between
the intended meaning and the written statement.
> How?
>
> Because from that point of view, you don't have to change. MLM does.
> OK - you're entitled to see it that way.
>
> But for a minute, just imagine (however unpleasant this is) that
> there WAS something about you that made you susceptible to MLM. If
> that were true but your 'innocent victim' point of view shielded you
> from looking at it, you'd never change it and you'd remain vulnerable
> to exploitation by MLM / NW opportunities.
>
> Whatever your reaction to my post, we can probably agree that in
> principle your bad experiences in MLM either DO have something to do
> with you or they DON'T.
>
> Trust me, I'm as anti-MLM as any of you. In my view, if MLM is evil,
> its not because it takes innocent, sweet people and abuses them, it's
> because it takes damaged, needy people and exploits them.
And right there, you may have shown you missed a point, the one I talked
about above that I thought you had caught.
I've made a lot of friends on this board. I know many of the people
here are quite intelligent. I wish a number of them lived in my area
so we could get together for parties or to see a movie or to just chat.
I'll pick on one, since I think he'll be okay with it. I got to meet
Paine once when he was in my area and we spent several hours at an ice
cream parlor talking about MLMs, music the historical sites in the
area, and much more. He has a great sense of humor, is quite
intelligent, rather laid back, and an interesting person (hope you
don't mind that, Paine -- and stop blushing!).
I've worked for years in residential treatment. I've learned how to
size people up quickly. Paine is no idiot and I didn't see any sign
that he was a needy person -- and, due to personal and professional
history and experiences, that's one thing I pick up on VERY QUICKLY.
People here accept responsibility for signing up with MLMs. They accept
both how they were fooled and how they didn't see what was going on.
I've seen that after watching and participating in this group since
something like early 2005.
I have yet to see a common trait that enables MLMs to suck people in.
MLMs don't look for one thing. They have learned to be all things to
all people, to emphasize to a potential recruit whatever it is that
will appeal to them. Then, once the person is in, they're fed doses of
brainwashing until they think like all the other drones.
You're looking for a "fatal flaw" (remember that from lit class,
people?) that each person has. The truth is there isn't one and for
most people here it was not that they were damaged that enabled MLMs to
take over their lives.
That is a critical and important misunderstanding you seem to have.
> Believing that MLM came along and destroyed your otherwise healthy
> self-esteem is - in my view - a form of denial that keeps you
> vulnerable, and our society from seeing exactly how and why MLM is so
> destructive.
I would say, from years of experience working in mental hospitals and
treatment centers, and from years of watching this group, the one in
denial here is you. I wish I could say this is a difference of
opinion, but it isn't.
You want to say, "If someone goes into an MLM, it's their fault. It's
because there's something wrong with them. The rest of us, the ones
that aren't damaged are safe. We're okay. We can't be sucked in to do
things like that."
Bullshit.
And if you know me and know my posting, you know I don't curse online.
That's how strong my sentiment is that this is just plain wrong.
We're ALL susceptible. Semper Vigilis. Always vigilant. We can all be
fooled at any point. Whatever your political opinion, you feel that
either a lot of people were fooled by Bill Clinton, or a lot of people
were fooled by George W. Bush. People get fooled. It's part of the
human condition and MLMs learn to watch that human condition and use it
against us, the same way politicians do to manipulate us into voting
for them.
I know you want to believe that only damaged people get sucked into
MLMs, but that's not true.
I went to an open meeting for QS (I won't go into it here, but I'll be
referring to some of these companies in shorthand from now on, I figure
people here know what QS is, it was and will be again AW). My
then-girlfriend invited me. At that point I had (and still have) my
own business. It was paying the bills and I was doing fine. I knew
some of the presentation was off and I could point out a number of
logic flaws in it, but toward the end, when people started talking
about their success stories, I was tempted to sign up. Not because I
was scared, wanted to be part of the group, or anything else. It was
because they really made it seem like anyone could join and soon be
making a lot of money if they worked at it. (And no, I did not join.)
> The same argument, btw applies to alcohol, drugs, cigarettes,
> gambling, porn - you name it.
Not really. Do you have much experience dealing with addiction?
> Replacing Amway / Quixtar with 'cocaine trade' in the original quote
> might be thought- provoking:
>
> ' All in all, the cocaine trade is a very evil organization bening
> run by a few hand-selected evil people who have trapped hundreds of
> thousands of unspecting good people and brainwashed them into
> thinking their only way out of a failed lifestyle is cocaine'
Yeah, that's a game anyone can play with any terms.
You are missing a VERY important point here: MLMs know how to deceive
and mislead a lot of people. It's not based on being damaged, need to
see a counselor, being ignorant, or anything else. They know how to
play to your strengths and desires, like any good succubus or incubus.
They know how to lie with sincerity.
And yes, once they get a person in, they are quite capable of damaging
their self esteem and taking control of that person in an abusive
relationship -- which is what it is, an abusive relationship.
As for those of us who have been in, it's not a matter of saying, "Okay,
I was damaged and this is what to deal with," it's a matter of
saying, "I wasn't damaged, I walked in and fell for it. I have to deal
with that." And people here are doing that.
If you want to truly understand MLMs you'll first have to come to terms
with the point that it is not a psychological wound that lets them
control people, it's that these groups know how to fool and control
people that are doing quite well.
If you insist on denying that, you will never truly understand MLMs or
what is going on here.
Oh, and since you're so fond of metaphors and comparisons, what you are
doing is tantamount to saying to a woman, "The whole reason you were
raped is because you're damaged, not because of anything else. It's
your fault you're a victim."
See? Anyone can use a metaphor to their own purpose or do the
substitution trick you played and make their point. The difference is,
in this case, you are talking to people that have been violated and
behaving like the statement in the last paragraph.
Hal
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