I wrote my response in a different editor, so I'm going to try to cut
and paste and hope it all stays consistent with what the author wrote.
This is the pro-MLM post I mentioned. The author has since claimed to
be neutral. Read the post and make your own decision. I find it hard
to believe this was written by anyone other than a strongly pro-MLM
person.
It looks like it was all intact, but some lines might have been
reformatted. If there is a formatting issue with im_tam's text, feel
free to blame it on me. Okay, it's 4 am, I'm tired, and the waterbed
looks warm and inviting. As Zaphod Beeblebrox said, "Share and enjoy."
Hal
------------
On Thursday 03 January 2008, im_tam wrote:
> I have been watching and reading this group for a long time. And
> silently I have heard so many different people and feelings about MLM
> come across here.
I just have to quote, of all things, Star Trek, at this point with the
line, "A lie is a very poor way to say 'Hello'." Your membership is
brand new. I checked you joined on approximately 11:00 pm on January
1, 2008.
So, from the start, you're not telling us the truth. Should we believe
anything else you say?
> But this one, I had to say something.
> Answer me this:
> What kind of business do you think you can get into that requires you
> to do nothing, buy nothing, invest nothing, no training, and then
> earn money?
This is the start of the sales pitch. While it's not a promise, it's an
implied promise. It starts with saying you need nothing to start (I
call it the Sgt. Schultz speech. "I know nothing, I see nothing...")
It basically says anyone can do it without effort, without special
skills, training or knowledge. Let's hang a big red flag on this and
look at it later, okay?
> I mean seriously...
> mortar business this way, franchise (which flows to the top as well,
> by the way), and expect money just to come to you?
Notice the assumption here, the statement with nothing to back it up.
The writer takes a chance to point out a franchise flows to the top as
well -- note s/he doesn't say to the top of what, but does say, "as
well." Now, let's step back and remember how a franchise works.
Someone comes up with a business model and fine tunes it. They put in
years of work developing a system that works, including advertising,
presentation, store layout, and so on. Then they work out business
arrangements with people who want to buy their franchises. Yes, those
at the top make the money, but they do so by doing exactly what MLM
claims to do: use replication. They make a percentage off each
franchise and when all are added together, it means a lot of money.
Another point to consider here is the phrase "brick and mortar
business." That ignores the myriad of possible businesses that are
computer based or service based that don't require an actual storefront
or rented office.
> If you want a McDonalds business, you better have been trained about
> what the heck you should do to make it work on all levels, don't you
> think?
> Wouldn't it be ridiculous to think they should just hand you over the
> products and equipment to run the business of any kind at no cost to
> you?
This is true, and it's worth remembering. Especially along the way.
But while we're here, let's look at another aspect of this situation.
If you want a McDonalds business, you deal with a professional. They
answer your questions directly. They don't tell you that it'll all
make sense eventually. They answer questions directly, giving a direct
answer. You can see market research. You can read up on what you can
expect to make over the next five to ten years. You aren't told you'll
make X% of what you sell without being told how much you can expect to
sell. While it is all approximations, it's still numbers that have
been worked out that can give you a pretty good idea off just how much
money you'll make. It's not a percentage of some ambiguous number,
it's good, solid, market projections.
> Do you really honestly believe that you shouldn't be a product of the
> product, no one it takes like, feels like, actually does?
I just have to be a smart-alec here and say, "What the heck does this
sentence mean?" It sounds good, but how can you be a product of the
product? Is the product making you something? I'm not going to even
bother with logic on this. It's just such a stupid, non-sensical line
that sounds like great market-speak that it's almost funny. It makes
as much sense and has as much logic behind it as a politician's promise
the week before election day.
> I mean how
> can you sell a burger, a coffee, lotion, a vitamin, get well card,
> car, house, anything if you haven't used one or tried it?
I know of a doctor who does breast implant surgery. Should he try the
product first? Not all products are appropriate for all people. One
of my best friends used to sell drugs to be used for people after a
heart attack. She never needed them. When I worked at the campus
grill in college, I knew several vegetarians that worked there as well
and did quite a good job. It does sound logical that we should use the
products we sell, but that is not always appropriate.
> I know I wouldn't invest my money in a stock broker that has never
> bought or traded stock on his own, nor would I think it right that he
> should expect payment because he feels entitled to it. It requires
> work, not matter the business AND money. I mean guys, come on....
Remember those red flags I mentioned earlier? Let's look back at this.
Would you trust a stock broker who had not taken all the appropriate
classes or was certified? Would you trust that doctor selling the
saline breast implants if he wasn't qualified?
You would not.
Yet, and we'll deal with this more, this whole thing started with asking
what other business can you get started in without training or
experience.
The point here is that you have reason to NOT trust people in any
profession if they don't have the training or experience, yet the case
is being made that if you're selling a product, you should know about
it and have experience with it. Not just use it, but know about it.
That takes either training or experience or both.
What was that about no training or doing nothing?
The point is that any job requires either knowing something or being
trained. Even an MLM. The difference is an MLM does OJT (on the job
training). Oh, and the other difference is that if you get a job that
needs training, then your employer pays for the training. Do MLMs do
that? No. They expect you to pay for all the training materials.
> And as far as the 99%+ that don't make money, that's not exactly
> accurate..
Uh, yes, it is, but since you make the claim, why don't you support it?
The point, from research, is that you have a better chance of getting
rich by getting lucky in one night in Vegas than in doing well in an
MLM.
> But to prove a point, let's look at traditional business.
> 80% of businesses fail in their first 2 years. Now these are guys
> that KEEP WORKING on their business and it finally fails somewhere in
> the 1st 2 years.
Again a statement without proof. I know I've been working at my
business for over 6 years and it's still going well. I also know some
people that started businesses and didn't work at it. They thought
they did by creating paperwork and fancy titles and deciding what
office furniture would look cool, but not everyone I know who has tried
to start a business has worked at it.
I agree that most small businesses do fail. Sometimes people have
worked hard, sometimes they haven't. There is no way to be sure one
will or will not succeed. Comparing MLM drones to people running their
own business, though, still leaves the small businesses on top. Even
more, in an MLM you are expected to recruit people below you. That
means you are not the only one taking the risk, but you are asking
others do do so as well. There is less than a 1% chance of succeeding
in an MLM. Even the bigger MLMs have admitted this. If you recruit
someone, you are asking them to do something that has a 99% chance of
costing them money and time. You are asking them to dosomething that
they will most likely fail at.
In a business, you can limit the risk (that's the reason behind a
corporation)
without taking others with him or her.
> That also applies to the network marketing business,
> doesn't it? Sure it does. You're buying a mini-franchise so why
> shouldn't you feel obligated to work it?
> So what happens to the tradional 20% that are still in business after
> 2 years? Another 80% fail before they make it to 5 years. And that is
> the same in the network marketing business too.
No, it's not. MLMs have a much higher rate of failure. Again, this is
a misstatement. I am going to point out, again, that this
whole "section" is based on the statement that fewer than 99+% of
people in an MLM don't fail. That is an assumption, based on no fact,
made by the writer without any support or backup.
I might point out that if one does look at figures -- and I have some
for you. Check out
<http://www.google.
Note the figures are compiled by someone with qualifications, not
someone guessing and not supporting what they say.
Now, once again, remember that big red flag I hung out earlier on this
comment:
> Answer me this:
> What kind of business do you think you can get into that requires you
> to do nothing, buy nothing, invest nothing, no training, and then
> earn money?
So you "do nothing, buy nothing, invest nothing, no training" yet
if "you're buying a mini-franchise.
work it?" The promises start with how it takes nothing at all, doing
nothing and buying nothing, but you're buying a mini-franchise AND
should expect to work it. So there goes the "buy nothing" AND the "do
nothing."
Whenever someone promises what's too good to be true, it is.
> See where the numbers say that 'so many have failed' are for several
> reasons.
The numbers say you're wrong, and that's numbers by people that have
researched the situation, not people making claims without data to
support them.
> One, they don't feel they 'owe' this business of their choosing
> anything. And then wonder why it doesn't grow like the magic
> beanstalk thrown out the window.
> Two, they really do try, they do all they can as they muddle around
> in this new business, but they are doing it all wrong. It's not their
> fault, their heart is most definitely in it, but they are doing it
> all wrong and no matter how much they 'love' the business it won't
> keep a burger joint in business doing it all wrong either.
I had trouble with this paragraph. Part of it was just plain poor
writing, but the other part is that this person who talked about doing
nothing kept talking about work. Then I realized it was just a
contradiction again. The point, made here, is that if you get into an
MLM, you have to expect to work at it. Yes, you have to work. You
have to invest your time and effort, which is a major investment.
The big difference is that in a business, you can create an Inc, Ltd,
LLC, or other entity so your investment is limited. In an MLM you are
asked to invest more and more. In a small business, you have legal
papers giving you ownership of what you create and in an MLM you are
part of an organization that can control what you create. Oh, and
another big difference: While something like 90% of all small
businesses fail in their first year, that is much better than the
99.9+% (if we're to be accurate) of the people in MLMs who LOSE money
in their experience. It's more than 10 times the success rate of MLMs.
Actually, it's more than 100 times the success rate of MLMers.
> There is a right way of doing this business, but the truth is, its
> not being taught in mainstream network marketing. It is in the
> boardroom, it is in the corporate circles - they get how to build
> success, but for some reason people expect to pay for the brick and
> mortar business, but not for the 'home business' or 'online business'
> that they choose.
Let me get this straight -- the right way to do a business is being
taught in the boardrooms? But the companies with these boardrooms are
the conventional business model, not MLMs. If the boardroom people
know the right way to do an MLM, why are they using conventional
business models?
Honestly, I'm not 100% clear what this paragraph is saying. That's the
case with so much of this post. Blame is laid in many places to avoid
the central point that 99.9+% people in an MLM fail. Now it's said the
reason is because people doing MLMs don't know what they're doing
because it's those in the boardrooms that do know.
> It's a very very broken way of thinking. And folks,
> it only breeds instand failure. I mean you might as well not even
> sign up for ANY and I mean ANY 'business' if you aren't going to work
> it like a business, invest in it like a business, stick with it like
> a business, learn how to do it right so you actually profit.
> Third, They quit before they have even begun. Can you imagine saying
> to CEO of McDonalds, "Dude, it's been 3 months and I have not made my
> investment back, much less have an income that will replace my job,
> so I quite!" Are you kidding me? That's how silly this all sounds and
> how damaging it is to think this way.
I don't know anyone who would be buying a franchise and still
talking "dude speak," but I'll let that go. It's just so absurd I had
to make a comment on it somewhere.
The difference is if you're getting involved in running a McD's, as I
said, you get an idea of what is going on from the start. You know how
long you'll be at Hamburger Academy (yes, that's what they call it),
you know what kind of investment you're making, you know how much the
franchise will cost you, and you know what to expect in terms of profit
from the business along the way. You can check your balance sheets
each month and see if you're on track or not. I've said this before.
However with an MLM, you're given big promises from the start in terms
of wealth, how little time and effort it takes, and how you'll get
somewhere fast without much effort.
Honestly, if people are quitting in 3 months, MLMs ahve only themselves
to blame, since they are playing into people's needs for instant
gratification and creating expectations they can't fulfill.
> Now, I have been in MLM's of different kinds for 20 years +. I've
> seen the Good, the Bad, and the really Ugly...I have also worked
> Corporate America, and guess what? I've see the Good, the Bad, and
> the very very ugly. No what I found? Idiots exist in every place you
> go. So do really amazing people. You can and will find them and have
> to deal with them. You can whine about that or you can just learn
> that is life and move on. What I'm saying is, there is huge
> possibilities in franchising oneself in network marketing as a viable
> business or you can go and get yourself a donut shop. It makes no
> difference to me. But they are the same model.
Yes, there are idiots in both places, but in one you get paid for your
time form the start. You know how much you're going to make and you
get things like insurance and vacation time. You are given ideas of
what to expect. In the other you're told you'll make a certain
percentage of your sales, but you et no base to live on.
Now here's a question: If you've been in MLMs for 20 years, why didn't
you stick with the one that worked as you were told and work it?
Shouldn't you be wealthy now? I'm not making fun of you, I'm pointing
out that if any of the ones you've been in worked well and really gave
you the chance to get wealthy, after 20 years of trying them, shouldn't
the ones that live up to their promise have made you wealthy by now?
> Now let's address the Pyramid scheme issue.
Note this sentence. Hang out another red flag. We're addressing the
pyramid scheme issue. There is an accusation that MLMs are pyramid
schemes. This is often said. What is a pyramid scheme? It's close to
a Ponzi scheme. MLMs are accused of being pyramids because people at
the top make money from people at the bottom. Those at the top make
money on the purchases and sales of those down under. It's a pyramid
because the more people you have under you, the more you make. The
other side of this is that if you're at the bottom, you don't make much
because those higher up make more than you.
Now, once again, remember we're talking about the pyramid scheme issue.
Hang out that red flag. Oh, heck, hang out two while you're at it.
> Some losers exist in
> every single type of business you can imagine. ALL OF THEM have
> morons that ruin it for the other guys. So what? That doesn't undo
> the vast number that really are trying to do something good or have a
> good business. Now you don't buy from every business in your town do
> you? No, just the ones that you like or are your favorites. That
> doesn't make the others 'bad', just not the ones you go to. But
> obviously someone does because they are still in business. Right?
> Right.
And what does this have to do, in ANY way, with the pyramid scheme
issue? It doesn't. This is critical in MLM thinking. It started by
saying, "We're going to address this issue. We're going to answer this
charge." Once that's said, people think, "Oh, good, we're going to get
an answer here." Then once the topic is introduced, the course of the
answer is changed so the actual question or issue is not dealt with
directly, yet when the blather is done, you feel like something has
been said, so you feel like it's been answered.
It hasn't. Instead you've been given a does of mis-direction that makes
you feel good. Just like a magician uses redirection so you can't see
their hands push the mysterious linking rings together so it looks like
magic, this is a distraction so you don't see the elephant in the
living room.
> And then there is the issue of have any of you people that cry
> foul with companies keeping percentages of profits please explain to
> me the classic all time pyramid of CEO, Vice President, Supervisors,
> Managers, Employees??? You don't think that there is more 'zeros' in
> the paychecks at the top than you are getting from your J-O-B?
And when they do address the topic, it's with this accusation.
It's, "We're not pyramids. THEY are pyramids." Well, yes and no.
It's a pyramid shape, in some ways, but there are major differences.
First, nobody gets to be CEO or anything like that without a lot of
work. For example, thanks to my Father looking out for our family, and
due to his death, I know own a fair amount of Best Buy stock. That CEO
and all the officers have a responsibility to me. If I don't like
them, I'll vote against them by proxy at the next stockholder'
meeting. If they can't make the company make a profit, then we, the
stockholders, will put them out of a job.
My Father wasn't at the top of any pyramid and Best Buy puts out what I
consider a small dividend, but because Dad put some money into it
whenever he had it, and let it grow over a few years, I can promise you
that I make more on those dividends in a year than you ever did in your
best year in an MLM -- in any MLM.
I'm not saying this to brag, but to hold up an example. I'm not at the
top of a pyramid. Stock corporations pay out their profit through
dividends. Yes, the CEO gets dividents and stock options, but he's
also helping ME make money. Oh, and I'm making that money while I'm
sitting on my duff, working on MY business or watching the 61" HDTV
I'll be buying later this year.
People who call a stock corporation a pyramid generally have no clue
about how stocks work. Anyone can buy stock. Start small, use a DRIP
(divident reinvestment plan) and reinvest. True, the first few years
it's not much, but after about 5 years, it grows. True, MLMs promise
wealth in 5 years, but you've been in them 20 years. You had a choice
(and you talk about this later) and put your money and effort into
MLMs. If you had put it into stocks instead, maybe at this point, 20
years down the road, you'd be considering whether to retire or to keep
your own business going. You don't have to be at the top to do this.
Now, as for the rest of the comments. Yes, a floor level employee gets
less than a CEO. But any employee knows what they're getting paid,
what their vacation time is, and so on. They know what to expect.
They also have the benefit of knowing what hours they are expected to
work. They don't have to set every evening aside to be prospecting.
They can clock out.
If they want to, they can apply for promotions and work their way up the
ladder. Some make it and some don't, but at whatever level they start,
they make money. They do NOT lose money at their job, like over 99.9%
of those who go into an MLM do.
Conventional corporations may be a pyramid in shape, but they are not a
pyramid scheme People can also leave them without being classified as
losers and can still keep in touch with their friends that they worked
with.
In MLMs, you pay for training, you don't know what you're going to be
making, and you are NOT receiving a paycheck for your time from when
you start the job onwards. You work until you get somewhere, instead
of working specified hours, and you don't know what you're going to
get. You can't participate in the company by buying stock where you
work and there is no actual profit sharing plan, as many corporations
have.
Yes, those at the top make more. They've earned their way up to it. It
is pyramid in shape, but not in scheme. Those at the bottom do not buy
products or put money into their job that increases the income at the
top. Don't confuse the shape of the organization with the meaning fo
the phrase pyramid scheme.
> Listen, the truth is, if the people that whined about the business
> they have chosen to get into then get out. Do your group, team,
> upline, downline, whatever you want to call them a favor and just
> quit. Just like I would tell an employee that whines because he
> doesn't want to work in my store and just sit in the bench and still
> get a paycheck or is just a negative rain cloud everywhere he goes.
> You'd be fired! So why should you be treated any differenlty if you
> are acting like that in your network marketing business? You think
> you are owed something? YOU CHOSE IT.
Good point. Confusing, as usual, due to poor writing skills, but a good
point. And a reminder that sitting on the bench, or getting something
for nothing, doesn't work. Neither in real life nor in MLMs.
> For those that want to learn network marketing the right way, its a
> great business and anyone that wants to learn the burger business can
> succeed too, its a great business I'm told. You get my point? It's
> not just luck. Not anymore than the traditional business is luck. And
> it's not just that you were failed by network marketing. A lot of
> people fail their own venture in MLM. That's the cold hard facts.
> I've seen it, been there done that, got the t-shirt, the mug, the
> watch, you name it.
If it's a great business, why do 99.9+% people who go into it lose
money? Why is it that, in most MLMs, those higher up make money on the
training materials of those lower down? Why do so many of them need to
use brainwashing or other manipulative techniques to convince people to
stay in?
> Do I think there are schmoes out there that will spoil things if they
> can? Yep. If you let them or are looking for them, consciously or
> unconsciously.
> I know some of those type in my school, my church, my neighborhood
> too. It's the ones that succeed that just don't hang with the other
> crabs in the bucket that keep pulling
> the ones trying to move up, back down. Get my drift?
>
> There are those that no matter what, they will find a way to be a
> victim.
This is getting quite off track -- so far so that I can't see what the
original point is. I'm tempted to just edit out sme paragraphs, but I
don't want to leave it open for someone to say I cut the good part that
I couldn't refute.
> There are those that no matter what, take responsibility for their
> choices to get into business - no one chained you to a chair and beat
> you to sign a paper remember? If you really hate the market don't get
> into it! I hate working on cars, I have no intention of ever being a
> mechanic!
I'm going to assume, and that's a BIG leap, that at this point the
writer is saying if you don't like an MLM, then get out, like you would
in any business. I have to assume that because if I don't, it makes no
sense. Working with that, I should point out that nobody in this group
is complaining about their position in an MLM. They are looking for
support in dealing with people that have been seduced by MLMs and told
they can easily obtain wealth through them.
> For those that get what I am saying - Much Success To You! Truly! And
> network marketing or no network marketing is soley a choice...A
> CHOICE.
>
> I choose not to shop at Basha's because I don't like the way the
> store is laid out and the lack of what I want there...but they have
> great covered parking. I can't stand on the corner with my megaphone
> crying foul because I walked into their store and stood in line after
> pulling things off the shelf and throwing them in my cart. And then
> they didn't follow me home, unload my car, put it away, cook it up
> and feed me, right? Right...
This overlooks some major parts of the problem with MLMs. If you go to
Basha's, you see what it's like and know what you're getting. If you
do a friend a favor and go to an MLM recruitment meeting with a friend,
you're told one thing about what it'll be like and given blather like
that above about why MLMs aren't pyramids, then seduced and brainwashed
until there is no choice. Everything possible is done to subvert free
will and choice. People are told what it will be like and are led to
believe, through the brainwashing, to believe that is what it's like
even when they see it isn't. They are lied to, deceived, and literally
brainwashed so they can be kept in an MLM.
Our complaints are not about whether we like working in an MLM or not,
but about how they take those who are near and dear to us and deceive
them, thus ruining lives and relationships.
> Ridiculous..
>
> Business is business, it's just a matter of choice and focus. I would
> LOVE to hear what your 'choice' has been for your 'now' and your
> future. What is the pay model? What will it give you? Think these
> things through and then go for it.
I referred to this earlier. It is choice. And if you want to do well,
it's up to you. That's true in everything. If wealth is important,
you can study and learn how to reach your goals. MLMs will not take
you there. Work can, stocks and investments can, and other things can,
but MLMs will not.
> If you get what I am saying I wish you Much Success in this new year.
> For those that don't? I wish you Much Success in the new year, but
> you will assume there is an alterior motive for me wishing you
> success when I don't know you. Half full.....half empty.....Cheers!
I don't get what you're saying. You contradict yourself, you disregard
figures proven through research and offer no support for what you say
and make claims about MLM businesses without showing us that you have
the experience of success to show us that you know for sure a person
can gain wealth through them honestly.
Since I made my first post to the MLM Survivor's Club that I was going
to respond to this post when it came through, you've responded and said
you are neutral.
I don't buy that. You spend way too much time promoting something this
group disagrees with. It's like coming into a Republican convention
and saying, "I'm neutral, but have you heard all these things that
prove Obama would be the best president?"
You're interest and bias is quite obvious.
Hal
Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net.
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