On Wednesday 19 March 2008, rubyshamrock4 wrote:
...
> I can only speak to what I have seen about the companies my close
> loved ones are into...they have never high pressured me to join, buy
> or have parties. So I guess not all mlm's are teaching these
> negative, anti family practices that you keep saying they do.
Once again, you're picking up only the information you want to and
ignoring the rest, or you're not doing the research with Google that
you indicate you do. Pretty much every MLM focuses on family and talks
about how it'll help you and your family. None of them claim to teach
anything negative. As a matter of fact, many MLMs use the term
negative as a way to dismiss anyone they disagree with.
Many groups, though, claim to teach one thing and teach another. Read
up on what Jim Jones taught before he got everyone to drink the
Kool-Aid. This is just like what I learned in anthropology: you can't
take what a culture says about itself as fact. People and groups have
a distorted view of themselves. If you don't believe me, go into a
prison and ask who's guilty and ask how many of them honestly feel it's
not their fault. Or on a more day-to-day view: how many times have you
gone out with someone who said they were sensitive or honest or hard
working and they weren't?
MLMs don't teach abandoning families, but many do encourage it under
different terms. That includes a form of double-think that includes
training their members to think literally and not explore other ideas,
so it's quite possible to say to someone that they're pro-family, yet
label a spouse who disagrees as a "dream stealer" that will destroy
them.
> Of
> course, I am not telling them they are brain washed because they have
> ambitions to make themselves a business out of these companies.
They have my sympathy. Remember that in 4-5 years when you see if
they're doing better or worse financially. There is a more than 99%
chance they'll be in worse shape if they stay in their MLMs.
> I also am not their prime market because I personally don't wear
> jewelry or use cosmetics.
> Is a steak house the same as an MLM? No. But I doubt all MLM's have
> the same EXACT structure either.
I could go with technical terms, but in short, that's just BS. Pure and
simple. MLMs do have different structures and vary, but the point is
they still have many layers of members, all trying to sell and make
money on their downline. (More on that in a minute.)
> My uncle sells cars and guess what, his boss makes money off of his
> sales too. Managers make commissions off of employees. Exactly the
> same? Nope. But the same basic principle. Every higher level makes
> a bit more off of the ones below them. My uncle also wins incentive
> trips for having the most sales, etc.
Ah, so you've heard their speeches, haven't you? Don't bother denying
it, you're using the same terms and language they use in their
presentations. And that's a big point: maybe they don't all have the
exact same structure, but I've heard the rhetoric from ONE MLM and I
can recognize it from others because they all have the same overall
pattern.
Now, as to managers and your uncle, the car sales man, there is a big
difference. In such businesses the roles are defined. A person is a
manager or a sales person. Your uncle isn't supposed to hire people
under him who hire people under him and so on. It's a totally
different situation. In an MLM, you can have chains of people 12 to 20
or more deep whereas in a regular corporation, you have a defined
hierarchy, not something loose that can be manipulated. A manager is a
manager and he also knows what his base salary is and what his
commission rates are.
> My SIL who sells jewelry makes money, loves having the parties and
> enjoys the company of the women she meets. I am sure not everyone
> makes tons of money. Neither do car salesmen, waitresses,
> managers...there are successful and unsuccessful people in all
> businesses and professions.
Again, there's a big difference. A waitress knows her base salary and a
good waitress will clean up in tips. (I know, I used to have a number
of waitstaff in a night club/bar area of town living in my rental units
when I was a property manager.) True, not everyone makes a ton of
money in their job, but on the flip side, not every job promises tons
of money. Most (as in all but five to ten) MLMs make that promise.
Overall, as your SiL keeps going, she'll realize she's either making
just barely enough to cover her expenses or she's actually losing
money. How can I make such a bold statement? Because I've studied
facts. I don't just say, "But other business work like this..." I
look up facts and study them instead of just drawing parallels that
don't hold water. I know, from research that over 99% of those who
join an MLM lose money.
> I can grasp that some companies are only pushing recruiting and not
> product sales.
The MLM that pushes product sales as opposed to recruiting are few and
far between.
> If they don't make sales, then I can see they might
> not be viable as an avenue for money making...but if you are selling
> product, to those who want it, not forcing your friends and family to
> buy it, then surely these folks are making some money.
And again you've missed the point. Not forcing is a good idea, but MLMs
don't focus on that. Some Avon people don't force, but otherwise, we
have yet to hear, in this group, of someone in an MLM that didn't push
to recruit everyone possible. (The 3' rule: if they can be within 3'
of you, then recruit them.)
Looking back on the situation which prompted your post, that's exactly
what was happening to Roxy: her sister kept pushing it on her, could
talk about nothing else, and even put it right in her face when Roxy
was recovering from heart surgery.
> Is it going
> to make you rich quick? I don't foresee anything doing that without
> work short of winning the lottery...
Funny you should mention that. The next few months will likely be a
great time to invest in the stock market. It's down and that's when
it's time to buy. It'll probably stay down until 2010 and go up. (The
market always stays down during a new President's first year of his
term.)
> Alcoholics analogy wasn't really hitting home for me...
Sorry, but it's basically what's going on.
To be blunt, Ruby, and you won't understand this, but you're the one who
is closed minded. You've been presented with the evidence of what
Arbonne has done to Roxy's sister, you've heard from a number of people
who have seen other MLMs do the same to other people, and I've quoted
one statistic at least 4-5 times (that over 99% of people who join an
MLM lose money), yet you still want to defend that type of
organization. Open minded does not mean continuing to believe
something when facts prove otherwise.
I'm not surprised you don't get the alcoholics analogy because it's
pretty accurate, but accepting it also means accepting that these
organizations are, literally, brainwashing people and draining their
bank accounts. You're not open minded enough to even explore, much
less consider, a concept that disagrees with what you want to believe.
I say that as someone who spent years working in psych treatment
programs and later working with people with other problems in the
classroom. When presented with contradictions to what you want to
believe, you either shut down, ignore the evidence, or excuse it with
statements that are not supportable. I can see that quite clearly from
what little you've posted here.
> If I know someone who is a diabetic, I won't start telling EVERYONE
> not to eat sugar...or that fruit is sweet, so it must be bad too.
Boy was that from not only a misunderstanding, but a bad parallel. How
many recovering alcoholics do you know?
> Ok, so if we are going to be open minded, can we not admit that not
> ALL mlm's are created equal? Or that at least the possibility exists
> that one is not bad? Mary Kay, Tupperware, Avon, Premiere
> Jewelry...I know someone involved in them all and I don't see that
> they are being brainwashed like I keep hearing here about some of
> these things like Arbonne and Quixtar, Amway. So how long does it
> take for the supposed brainwashing to happen? Are they all just
> doing it wrong because they haven't pressured me to be a rep yet?
Organizations, as you've said, vary, but if you think Mary Kay is just
peachy, then find the MK survivor's board and ask them about it. While
many Avon ladies may do okay, there are still those who do the same
thing we're talking about.
Paine, the list moderator, has had a challenge up for years for any MLM
member to prove that their MLM business is actually making a profit
after taxes. Not one person has taken it yet.
If MLMs are so good and are profitable, and if the ones you talk about
have people that do well, or if your SiL is doing so well, then please,
prove us wrong.
No body has yet.
Now, as to "can we not admit that...", again, that statement shows
you've missed the entire point of the board. We admit we're anti-MLM,
but on the other hand, we've become that way from experience. Most
people here were pro-MLM at one time and were in MLMs. Experience
changed their minds on that.
If you're trying to somehow get some emotional satisfaction by getting
people here to say, "Okay, the MLMs you like are okay," well, that's
just not going to happen. We're not going to endorse any MLM for a
number of reasons. I made a statement once that Avon seemed okay and
immediately someone piped up with a few horror stories about what
happens in many Avon groups. Even in "good" MLMs, the structure
encourages abuse.
Hal
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