Thursday, May 31, 2007

Re: [MLM Survivors Club] Ad Hominem

On 31 May 2007 at 19:51, momluvseliana wrote:

> Who
> is most likely to be atrracted to MLM's, the lazy, the poor, the
> proud? Or can anyone easily be a victim because MLM's are that good at
> what they do?

I think just about anyone with any degree can get sucked into MLMs. They
just need to be at a point in their life where they are looking for something
(whether it be extra cash, financial stability or more meaning in their lives)
AND not know the money math on MLMs.

Lauren

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[MLM Survivors Club] Re: No defense for Pro-MLM posts here!

--- In mlmsurvivorsclub@yahoogroups.com, "bitch_n_pack"
<bitch_n_pack@...> wrote:
>

> >
> hiya hal,
> ok i don't bother with capitals unless for real emphasis. i have
R.A.
> and more movements are a pain, literally, and physically!

Yet you write about 500 words to express a point and can't manage to
press the shift key a few times. I am currently experiencing severe
back pain and ANY movement brings agony. I still edure the pain to
attempt to make my point clearly.

> i use correct English Grammar as i am aust = british spelling.
> really clearly, yes i do realise that none of you want to hear
about
> anything but dislike of mlm.
> fine, you all have your reasons ,and they are valid.

I am a British born Canadian citizen and if your writing is proper
English grammer I have been sorely deceived by all the educational
institutions that I have progressed through. Do not assume that I or
any person in this group wants to hear nothing but distain of mlm. I
personally am very open to an honest frank discussion of the pros and
cons of the mlm business model. I think that this group is more
interested in the abuses committed by many mlms.

> what i wanted you to maybe? consider is that all retail to any
> person carries exactly the same risk of lies and mistruths about
the
> product and its worth.
> and maybe ,just maybe , you will all broaden the personal horizons
> to check the "legit" sellers products you buy now.
> that was all

All retail does NOT carry the same risk of lies and mistruth. Many
mlms use mind control techniques that make it all but impossible for
those involved to ascertain the true value of the products that they
sell. "Legit" companies must answer to public trust, stakeholders
interests, government agencies, etc. to stay in business. Most
companies work very hard to get and maintain the public's trust. Yes
there are abuses but the company involved usually pays a heavy price
for any attempted deception. I believe it is disingenuous at best to
attemt to paint all with the same brush.

No offense, but you sound like you are looking for people that might
be willing to purchase products from an mlm as opposed to traditional
business.
Regards, Trevor Hunt.

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Re: [MLM Survivors Club] Ad Hominem

ANYONE can be a victim. They prey on emotion which has nothing to
do with education. I am educated (Bachelor's degree), always above
average grades, plenty of common sense, earned my Paralegal
certificate, make a decent average salary, two-income household,
didn't have kids at the time.

For me it was the desire to have kids and be able to stay home. It
was also the desire to own a house in a decent neighborhood. It
also was a desire to travel since I hadn't gone on vacation in
several years. It was all of those types of things. The MLM's
focus on those basic desires and tout the word "dream" all over the
place. "Dreams come true" "dream job" "acheive your dreams". Then
one day those dreams turn to nighmares when you find yourself
bankrupt, homeless divorced and/or friendless because you drove them
all away in persuit of the "dream".

So when you attack MLMs to someone who is in one, they take it so
personally because the MLM recruiters made it all about their
personal dreams. Joining an MLM is always about emotion and never
about sound business decision-making.

are there certain types of
> personalities or characters that can be easily manipulated by
MLM's?
> Besides being ignorant and uneducated? (I know education is not
an
> issue because a lot of people have common sense without a
degree.) Who
> is most likely to be atrracted to MLM's, the lazy, the poor, the
> proud? Or can anyone easily be a victim because MLM's are that
good at
> what they do?
>

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Re: [MLM Survivors Club] Ad Hominem

On Thursday 31 May 2007, momluvseliana wrote:
> --- In mlmsurvivorsclub@yahoogroups.com, "Vicki" <v_eller@...> wrote:
> > I know this is going to sound mean, but it goes back to some recent
> > posts about comunication...
> >
> > Based on how your cousin writes, I would NEVER put any trust in
> > anything that she has to say. If she speaks anything like she
>
> writes,
>
> > she comes across as a very ignorant and uneducated person. I would
> > ask myself if she even understands the words that are coming out of
> > her mouth.
> >
> > Communication is key in any endeavor. Why do people not understand
> > that?????
>
> I am not too hurt about the loss because she is actually the niece of
> my aunt's husband. We were not that close until recently. My aunt
> told me to start hanging out with her because she was somewhat of a
> loner and we have kids that are around the same age.

There may be some good reasons she's a loner and you might be learning
those reasons right now.

> The thing that
> hurts is that I know that I am a good friend. And that is what I was
> to her. I knew of how f'd up her family was and thought she was
> different because she kept telling me she was different.

If she has to keep telling you, then she realizes, down inside, that she
isn't.

> I was
> always telling her that I was praying for her and her family and her
> situations. And I really was. One thing about me is that I really
> don't care for women drama, (I am more like one of the guys) But I
> really wanted to be a good friend to her and listen and give advice.
> Trust me it was emotionally draining, listnening to her life story
> and problems. I felt so bad for her. (She does have a lot of
> issues)

A big "trick" here is to get the sense of whether she is dealing with
her issues or is complaining. Does she keep letting more and more
happen to her, or does she try to act to make things better? Bad
things happen to all of us, the difference is in whether we let those
things become excuses or whether we stand up with pride and find ways
past the steaming, stinking piles that life drops in our way.

> So it is sad to me that she is being made an MLM victim. My
> husband and I keep thinking that wow, they caught the perfect fish,
> hook, line, and sinker. She is a stay at home mom (with no skills
> that I know of), her husband makes average money, and I think she has
> bipolar disorder also, because she says it runs in her family. I
> have nothing against being a stay at home mom, because I currently I
> am one. But I am home because I can't find a good job with my degree
> and my record for the time being. I have talked to her about
> possible at home jobs such as babysitting, jewelry making, cake
> making, etc. but she never seemed interested, and that is also what
> my aunt says about her.

It sounds more like she's interested in having a job that provides
income but not in having a job that means she'll have to work. A lot
of MLMs do admit they take work, but they exchange that for status
by "love bombing" and making the person feel important. It helps rope
in those who think highly of themselves and don't feel they should have
to work their way up to be recognized.

> And she won't get a job, because she does
> not trust day care.

Translation: She's too lazy to work and this is her permanent "fall
back" excuse that will always keep her from needing to go out and work.
I would not have said that based on that comment alone, but in context,
it seems so.

As a former teacher, especially one working in special ed who saw so
many different kids with so many issues, she is probably doing more
damage to her kids if she keeps them at home and doesn't get them
involved in other activities (does she get them to participate in
outside groups) than if she sent them to any day care.

> Well the point of this was to ask the question,
> are there certain types of
> personalities or characters that can be easily manipulated by MLM's?

Oh, yes. She's a prime target and I suspect, from what you've told us,
that one reason is because she thinks quite highly of herself and she's
fallen into their, "You're great, we'll make you rich" trap.

> Besides being ignorant and uneducated? (I know education is not an
> issue because a lot of people have common sense without a degree.)

Any conman will tell you it's easier to con an intelligent person than
a "dumb" person. (Translate dumb however you want.) That can apply to
level of education as well.

> Who is most likely to be atrracted to MLM's, the lazy, the poor, the
> proud? Or can anyone easily be a victim because MLM's are that good
> at what they do?

I'd say the proud who are too proud to start at a realistic level and
earn respect as they move up in their company.

On the other hand, anyone can be a victim if the MLM can see how to
punch their buttons.

Hal

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Re: [MLM Survivors Club] Ad Hominem

--- In mlmsurvivorsclub@yahoogroups.com, "Vicki" <v_eller@...> wrote:
>
> I know this is going to sound mean, but it goes back to some recent
> posts about comunication...
>
> Based on how your cousin writes, I would NEVER put any trust in
> anything that she has to say. If she speaks anything like she
writes,
> she comes across as a very ignorant and uneducated person. I would
> ask myself if she even understands the words that are coming out of
> her mouth.
>
> Communication is key in any endeavor. Why do people not understand
> that?????

I am not too hurt about the loss because she is actually the niece of
my aunt's husband. We were not that close until recently. My aunt
told me to start hanging out with her because she was somewhat of a
loner and we have kids that are around the same age. The thing that
hurts is that I know that I am a good friend. And that is what I was
to her. I knew of how f'd up her family was and thought she was
different because she kept telling me she was different. I was always
telling her that I was praying for her and her family and her
situations. And I really was. One thing about me is that I really
don't care for women drama, (I am more like one of the guys) But I
really wanted to be a good friend to her and listen and give advice.
Trust me it was emotionally draining, listnening to her life story and
problems. I felt so bad for her. (She does have a lot of issues) So
it is sad to me that she is being made an MLM victim. My husband and I
keep thinking that wow, they caught the perfect fish, hook, line, and
sinker. She is a stay at home mom (with no skills that I know of), her
husband makes average money, and I think she has bipolar disorder also,
because she says it runs in her family. I have nothing against being a
stay at home mom, because I currently I am one. But I am home because
I can't find a good job with my degree and my record for the time
being. I have talked to her about possible at home jobs such as
babysitting, jewelry making, cake making, etc. but she never seemed
interested, and that is also what my aunt says about her. And she
won't get a job, because she does not trust day care. Well the point
of this was to ask the question, are there certain types of
personalities or characters that can be easily manipulated by MLM's?
Besides being ignorant and uneducated? (I know education is not an
issue because a lot of people have common sense without a degree.) Who
is most likely to be atrracted to MLM's, the lazy, the poor, the
proud? Or can anyone easily be a victim because MLM's are that good at
what they do?

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Re: [MLM Survivors Club] Re: No defense for Pro-MLM posts here!

On Thursday 31 May 2007, bitch_n_pack wrote:
...
> hiya hal,
> ok i don't bother with capitals unless for real emphasis. i have R.A.
> and more movements are a pain, literally, and physically!
> i use correct English Grammar as i am aust = british spelling.
> really clearly, yes i do realise that none of you want to hear about
> anything but dislike of mlm.
> fine, you all have your reasons ,and they are valid.
> what i wanted you to maybe? consider is that all retail to any
> person carries exactly the same risk of lies and mistruths about the
> product and its worth.
> and maybe ,just maybe , you will all broaden the personal horizons
> to check the "legit" sellers products you buy now.
> that was all

Okay, laughing at me, here. ;-) I used to have to be so focused on
learning disabilities, I miss other issues and I've had to deal with
ESL so often I miss the point of British spelling -- but the spelling
was not what got me. I tend to listen to and watch so many comedies
and such from the BBC that I sometimes use British slang that my
American friends don't catch.

Hal

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Re: [MLM Survivors Club] Ad Hominem

On Thursday 31 May 2007, Dawn _ wrote:
> I just want to clarify that that e-mail (in all caps below that
> mulluvseliana posted) was NOT from me (Dawn). I have no idea who
> wrote it. FYI: My father is disabled and has never owned any
> businesses. I'm not sure who's post that was, but I just want to make
> sure you realize it wasn't mine.
>
> Also, I was not attacking Hal's character when I asked about him
> having kids. I was simply trying to explain (if you read the context
> within which this question was asked) the reason for MY being in an
> MLM, and asking him if he could relate to the fact that part of the
> reason I need to make extra money is to help support my children and
> my family. This isn't something that someone without children (or,
> say, someone who doesn't have others to care for and provide for,
> such as aging parents, etc.) can relate to, and I was trying to make
> the point that maybe that's why Hal couldn't identify with my need to
> make extra money for that reason. It was never intended as a personal
> attack. And Hal, if you took it that way, I apologize.

You have one point, but the context in which you made the argument is
what makes it ad hominem. The focus was on different topics and such a
statement 1) diverted attention from the points that were being made
(you generally avoid my points instead of responding to them), and 2)
was making the point that I was not in a place to judge MLMs. The
focus was more on MLMs, not your choice to get in one instead of
finding other work. For example, my choice was to start a non-MLM
business that let me work from home. I inventoried my skills, worked
out what was possible, tried to do something with what I could and kept
my eyes open and grabbed the first opportunity that came along that let
me use my skills for success.

Another point is that you know almost nothing about me. I could make
the point that you can't identify with my needs because my Father died
without a will and all his money is tied up in probate and I have to
keep my income going because I'm the only one in our family right now
with any income to take care of her and a relative who is helping her
with the paperwork and everything else -- as well as us all coping with
my Father's death after several years of leukemia.

Notice I have mentioned that in the group before, but not as a
validation of my choices or as an excuse for my actions or what I've
been writing (actually I pointed out that was why I was not able to
respond to help someone).

We all have needs for extra money or for time for different reasons.
One person's reasons are no reason to think another person doesn't have
similar problems under different situations.

Essentially, bringing it up was changing the topic and resorting to, "I
know things you can't know, so I can be wrong and you can be right."
To be honest, I'm just too tired now to bother even looking up what
fallacy that falls under.

Hal

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Re: [MLM Survivors Club] Ad Hominem

I know this is going to sound mean, but it goes back to some recent
posts about comunication...

Based on how your cousin writes, I would NEVER put any trust in
anything that she has to say. If she speaks anything like she writes,
she comes across as a very ignorant and uneducated person. I would
ask myself if she even understands the words that are coming out of
her mouth.

Communication is key in any endeavor. Why do people not understand
that?????

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[MLM Survivors Club] Re: No defense for Pro-MLM posts here!

--- In mlmsurvivorsclub@yahoogroups.com, Hal Vaughan <hal@...> wrote:
>

> I'm not at the point where I can say whether or not I think those
posts
> are on or off topic or trolls. I haven't been able to read enough
of
> them and understand enough to know for sure -- and, again, that is
> coming from someone who has had to work with students with learning
> disabilities who could barely write.
>
> Hal
>
ps as to trolls. i did check my post, i did Not say trolling,
someone else misread that! i stated i trawl, ie as in deep sea
fishing...for info as opposed to surfing the net.

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[MLM Survivors Club] Re: No defense for Pro-MLM posts here!

--- In mlmsurvivorsclub@yahoogroups.com, Hal Vaughan <hal@...> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 30 May 2007, John Linthicum wrote:
> > On 5/30/07 10:02 AM, "bitch_n_pack" <bitch_n_pack@...> wrote:
> > > and this is why i joined, to see if there was open honest
sharing
> > > of bad products, sales methods etc. and the all mlms are bad
> > > attitude also disturbs me, your' e not alone ! but i continue to
> > > read and rarely contribute, though i have this last week.
> > > cos you know, someone- somewhere- is doing ok..
> >
> > I have to say that reading your posts is like trying to read a
ransom
> > note. No offense, but you don't communicate very well using no
> > punctuation, capital letters, or proper sentence and/or paragraph
> > structure.
>
> I have to agree. I haven't said anything because I've been focused
on
> other areas here, but I have yet to read through one of your
posts. I
> catch spots that seem like you have good points, but it is so hard
for
> me to read that I just can't make sense out of what you're saying.
My
> personal philosophy is, "If a person doesn't care enough to make
their
> work readable, then they don't care enough about what they're
saying
> for me to care about putting in work to read it." In other words,
I
> feel if someone wants me to read their work, it's their
responsibility
> to make it understandable, not my responsibility to figure it out.
>
> I don't want to be cruel, but I just can't follow what is being
said. I
> am speaking, by the way, as a former special ed teacher who worked
with
> many different learning disabilities in students and worked with
many
> ESL (English as a second language) students and who has a learning
> disability himself and has trouble making sure his own words are
> spelled correctly in his e-mails.
>
> > Since you just pointed out why you joined this group, and numerous
> > posts over the past few days have pointed out to you and everyone
> > else why this group exists and what it is *really* for, please
stop
> > posting. You're in the wrong place.
>
> Here's an example. I didn't even know this is what "bitch_n_pack"
was
> saying. It's that hard for me to decipher those posts.
>
> I'm not at the point where I can say whether or not I think those
posts
> are on or off topic or trolls. I haven't been able to read enough
of
> them and understand enough to know for sure -- and, again, that is
> coming from someone who has had to work with students with learning
> disabilities who could barely write.
>
> Hal
>
hiya hal,
ok i don't bother with capitals unless for real emphasis. i have R.A.
and more movements are a pain, literally, and physically!
i use correct English Grammar as i am aust = british spelling.
really clearly, yes i do realise that none of you want to hear about
anything but dislike of mlm.
fine, you all have your reasons ,and they are valid.
what i wanted you to maybe? consider is that all retail to any
person carries exactly the same risk of lies and mistruths about the
product and its worth.
and maybe ,just maybe , you will all broaden the personal horizons
to check the "legit" sellers products you buy now.
that was all

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