On Thursday 31 May 2007, momluvseliana wrote:
> In my first year of college in 2000, I took a critical/logical
> thinking writing course. I don't remember much of it because writing
> and language arts are not my best subjects. But I remember that I
> found it interesting because of all the different types of arguments
> there were. I remember the terms ad hominem, circular arguments,
> slippery slope, etc. I remember the instrutor saying that
> politicians use these arguments all the time. (I am not really into
> politics, but upon analysis of some debates, I found it cool to spot
> those kind of arguments.)
I've seen schools teach them in high school, but it's rare. That's too
bad. I'm sure that class has benefited you many times over. One time
info like that is a big help is every election time. I think if we had
a truly educated population the politicians would not get away with a
lot of what they do. During the upcoming election, watch to see just
how much of all the campaigns are based on fear ("If that person is
elected, all these terrible things will happen and the country will
fall apart.")
> I have found it extremely interesting that MLM supporters use these
> logical fallacies. (Is that the right term?)
Exactly right.
> For example how Dawn
> tries to attack Hal by asking if he has kids, etc, etc. in a way
> attacking his character, and avoiding the argument at hand.
Oh, yes! I'm so glad others are seeing it. While experience can count
for a lot, it doesn't change facts. Also, as you noticed, a lot of
that was misdirection. Perhaps she'd make a good stage magician? To
me, when someone starts to pull something like that, it's a clear
indication to me that they could NOT counter an argument and had to
change the topic or do anything to avoid replying because they were not
ready to admit they could not counter the point under discussion. To
me, when Dawn/Terra started doing that, it was clear proof she did not
want to acknowledge my points because they were solid and irrefutable.
> It is
> funny to me because after being aducated by Hal about ad hominem i
> realized that my cousin did the same thing to me. If you don't mind
> I am cutting and pasting her last email to me. I am willing to be
> that anyone would find the tone harsh and emotional. Note:
> Honestly, the only thing I said that may have pushed her buttons was
> that she should research MLM's and that I could find the main
> ingredient for cheaper.
And that is likely to have pushed her buttons. Why? Remember, a lot of
reactions like that are below the conscious level. There is a level of
reasoning that many people don't see. In your case, when you said
that, you attacked two major points of her MLM: 1) That there were
cheaper products or cheaper ways to get them, and 2) that it should be
researched. She knows that, at a deeper level, but they've brainwashed
her to believe that they have the best products at the cheapest price
and that they are so wonderful that anyone who dares speak against them
is just bitter. Anyone daring to suggest research is saying they're
not the cat's meow. At some level your cousin knows this but doesn't
want to believe it, that's why your comment pushed her buttons and set
her off.
> I did not say her particular MLM was a
> fraud, because honestly I don't know much about MLM's at the time. I
> just read the wikepedia definition for MLM and thought she should
> check it out. This is her last word.
>
> FIRST OF ALL I DONT EVEN KNOW WHY WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS...
All caps. Does she "shout" on purpose? (All caps in Internet speak is
considered quite rude!)
> WHETHER YOU DIDNT INTEND TO...YOU DID. WE WOULD NEVER REACT THIS WAY
> IF WE DIDNT FEEL THAT. MAYBE YOU JUST DONT REALIZE THAT COMING FROM
> YOUR END. IF WE WERE NOT IN THE BUSINESS YET THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
> BETTER BUT WE ALREADY ARE. ITS LIKE DO YOU THINK WE ARE STUPID ENOUGH
> TO JOIN THIS?
Did she respond to your email immediately? This paragraph sounds like
an emotional rant with no editing and while she was still angry. I
couldn't even follow what she said. Yes, you certainly did punch her
buttons!
>
> MY DAD WHO OWNS SEVERAL BUSINESSES LOOKED THIS UP BECAUSE I SHARE
> EVERYTHING WITH HIM AND HE NEVER TOLD US IT MAY BE A SCAM..WHY?..
> HE KNOWS IM NOT STUPID ENOUGH TO DO IT IF IT WAS! AND HE SAID HIMSELF
> MULTILEVEL BUSINESS IS GOOD. HOW WILL A BUSINESS GROW IF THERE ARE NO
> DITRIBUTORS TO JOIN...
Interesting. Yes, she is "not stupid enough" to do it if she *knows* it
is a scam. On the other hand, it doesn't occur to her she may be the
one being scammed, does it?
As for distributors, that is one major thing I'm avoiding. I don't want
distributors for my business. They have this nasty habit of expecting
to get paid.
> ITS JUST LIKE A TREE..JERED WENT TO MEETING
> LAST NIGHT FOR MORTGAGE INVESTMENT AND STOCKS...SAME WAY OF
> BUSINESS...MULTI LEVEL....THIS GUY WHO JOINED ZIJA WHEN IT FIRST CAME
> OUT HAS 500 PEOPLE HE INTRODUCED THIS TO AND SO HE GETS ACOMMISION
> FROM ALL THOSE PEOPLE...ITS A GOOD TIME TO JOIN BECAUSE WE ARE ON THE
> TOP LEVEL ALREADY....MANY YEARS LATER THERE WILL BE ALOT OF PEOPLE IN
> THIS LIKE A TREE....THIS BUSINESS IS IN NO WAY A WAY TO MAKE
> MONEY....ITS NOT ALOT....ITS JUST ON THE SIDE AND WHY NOT WITH A
> GREAT PRODUCT LIKE THIS...IF MONEY IS THE GOAL TO BE IN
> ZIJA....PEOPLE BETTER NOT JOIN THEN...OUR REASON FOR JOINING MORE ON
> SPREADING THE WORD FOR BETTER HEALTH RATHER THAN MAKING COMMISION.WE
> JUST WANTED TO HELP YOU SINCE YOU DID SAY YOU WANTED TO...BUT OTHER
> THAN THAT WE DIDNT REALLY CARE WHETHER YOU WERE OR NOT. WE ARE JUST
> HERE TO HELP PEOPLE.
It's "on the side" until marks are so brainwashed it's their entire
life. She's in, hook, line, and sinker. I'm sorry to hear that. At
this point, it's a waiting game and taking what chances you can to ask
questions. You know about logical fallacies now. If you want more,
look up the term in Wikipedia, since you know that site. Also look for
it in titles of previous posts. I wrote up a lot on it in one post and
someone else found a link that does a great job of explaining them.
The point is NOT to use them against her, but to let them help you
frame questions that will push her to examine the facts. It's possible
when she can't answer questions she may start thinking about the
situation.
>
>
> THIS COMPANY IS MADE FROM PEOPLE THAT ARE WELL KNOW CHEMISTS AND
> SCIENTISTS AND AWARD WINNING SCIENCE RESEARCHES..
> NOT JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO WORK AT A LAB AND MADE THIS DRINK....THE
> OWNER OF THIS IS A TOP NUTRITIONISTS AND SCIENTISTS WHO NOW WORKS
> FULL TIME WITH CHARITY AND GIVES ALL HIS EARNINGS FROM THIS TO
> CHARITY...OBVIOUSLY YOU DIDNT RESEARCH ENOUGH SINCE YOU KNOW NOTHING
> ABOUT THIS COMPANY...
And here's a kicker. I'll explain it in terms I know. I use Linux
instead of Windows. Every six months or so there is a new study or
report about how terrible Linux is and how great Microsoft is. Then a
few people check on the report and soon it turns out it's by a
supposedly independent company that gets a lot of funding by Microsoft.
Anyone can get awards. They just have to start or work for a company
that will give them out. The trick is to check the awards and see if
they were awarded by a respect third party group.
Another point is this is a fallacy: appeal to authority. "If this
brainiac is working on it, it must be great!" That doesn't prove it's
great. It just proves one person thinks it is. True, their
credentials count for something, but, again, check their credentials.
>
>
> IN AUGUST JERED AND UNCLE MIKE WILL BE FLYING TO VEGAS TO ATTEND A
> CONVENTION IN VEGAS BECASUE THERE WILL BE A ZIJA STORE IN VEGAS..WHY
> HAVE DISTRIBUTORS THEN....WELL FOR BETTER COMMUNICATION AND FOR
> PEOPLE WHO DONT LIVE IN VEGAS...EITHER WAY ITS THE SAME PRICE AND
> WILL PROBABLY BE MORE EXPENSIVE AT THE STORE. LAST NIGHT THERE WAS A
> PHONE MEETING WITH THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY MADE THIS DRINK. IT WAS
> NEAT....IT WAS NATIONWIDE SO PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER ASKED HIM
> EVERYTHING..
And I'll bet if she goes to Vegas to do this, she has to reserve her
room through the organization and pay for attending. They'll say they
don't make much through that event, but they'll probably clear several
million -- and that's after expenses.
>
>
> WE KNOW THERE ARE MORINGA TREE BRANCHES AT SEAFOOD AND RANCH 99 AND
> WEBSITES THAT SELL SEEDS TO PLANT. THIS COUNTRY IS TO FAST PACED. IM
> A BUSY MOM....EVERYONE WORKS....NOT EVERYONE HAS THE TIME TO PLANT A
> TREE AND MAKE THEIR OWN SALADS. WE CHOOSE THE DRINK BECAUSE FIRST OF
> ALL THE TREE BY ITSELF IS DISGUSTING. IT TASTES LIKE CRAP. NOT
> EVERYONE WILL BE ABLE TO HANDLE THE TASTE. THE FORMULATOR EXPLAINED
> THATS WHY HE ADDED CANE SUGAR TO ADD FLAVOR AND TO HELP THE BODY WITH
> ABSORPTION TO ABSORB THE NUTRIENTS BETTER.
I don't remember my chemistry (and yes, I taught Chemistry for a year),
but I'm not sure this is right. Anyone here know better? Or could any
moderators who know a doctor in the family run it by them? ;-)
> HE HIMSELF REALLY VOMITED
> BECAUSE THE FIRST THING HE DID WAS BLENDER IT PURE.IN AFRICA THEY
> HAVE NO OPTION SO THEY HAVE TO JUST EAT THE LEAVES STRAIGHT. BUT
> SINCE WE HAVE THIS OPTION WE CHOOSE THIS. WHY DRINK TAP WATER WHEN
> THERE IS PURIFIED.
I am trying to follow and understand just why she went off on this
tangent and what it has to do with any of the rest. It sounds like
programmed MLM speak and that she's just so used to it being part of
the spiel that she has to say it.
> AND THE WAY ZIJA IS MADE COMES FROM MORINGA TREES
> WITHOUT THE PESTICIDES IN AN ENVIRONMENT UNDER A TENT BECAUSE THE SUN
> WILL KILL MOST OF THE NUTRIETNS.
Again, I don't remember the science, but plants need sunlight to grow.
This sounds really odd. (I could be wrong.)
> MY BEST FRIEND WORKS OUT AT LA
> FITNESS HERE AND SHE INTRODUCED IT TO PEOPLE WORKING OUT AND THEY
> SAID ITS "CONVENIENT"
Oh, yes. That's an endorsement that means I need to just rush out and
buy it. Personally, after dealing with just a few people in Hollyweird
when I was pitching stories to TV, I tend to try to ignore trends from
that area.
[confusing rambling cut out]...
> WE CAN GO ON AND ON BACK AND FORTH AND REALLY ITS A WASTE OF BOTH OF
> OUR TIMES. YOU SEEM LIKE YOUR ALWAYS CORRECT ABOUT THINGS AND THAT WE
> DONT KNOW MUCH AND YOU CANT ACCEPT THE FACT THAT EVEN IF YOU DIDNT
> INTEND TO DO YOU THINK WE WOULD BE FEELING LIKE THIS TOWARDS YOU NOW?
Another sentence that's incredibly hard to follow, but yes, now the ad
hominem starts!
> IF YOU WANT TO RESPOND ITS OK YOU DONT HAVE TO BECAUSE WHATEVER YOU
> SAY I WILL SAY SOMETHING BACK ANYWAYS.NEXT TIME DONT ASK PEOPLE HOW
> THINGS ARE IF YOU PLAN ON JUST TRYING TO ACT LIKE YOU KNOW MORE THAN
> THE PEOPLE IN IT BY THINKING THEY ARE STUPID NOT KNOWING THERE ARE
> SCAM AND ILLEGAL BUSINESSES OUT THERE....YOU MUST REMEBER YOU EMAILED
> US THAT AS PEOPLE ALREADY IN THE BUSINESS....
> US TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONCERN....IF THATS CONCERN IN YOUR
> WORLD...TO THE PEOPLE YOU TALK TO ITS MORE OFFENSIVE. I RESPECT
> EVERYONE AND YOU KNOW THAT SO ME BEING THIS WAY NOW...THERES A
> REASON.
Ouch. You must have touched a really deep nerve. One way I put it is
that you can tell how on target you are with a bit of truth by how
strongly someone fights against it. You must have hit a bullseye,
judging by the strength of her anger in this letter.
There is a lot wrong with this last paragraph, but I'm just a little too
worn out to even pick it apart. Nobody is saying the people are
stupid. It's generally considered easier to con a smart person than a
dumb one!
> Disgusting huh? This is why I am an MLM survivor. Thanks Hal, I can
> now spot all the MLM talk. :@)
Wow! It's great to know I've done some good here, after all the mess
that comes up at times.
Sorry for jumping in throughout but there were just so many logical
fallacies that I could not resist using what your cousin wrote as
examples.
Hal
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