I've waited to respond on this because I did not want people thinking I
was a bulldog with a vendetta, but there is a point to consider here.
Lori describes many of the problems in her grandmother' s behavior. It
doesn't take a scholar making a careful perusal of that list to see
that the traits she talks about are all associated with MLMs. I won't
go into listing them (but I can if I need to support what I say for
anyone who can't re-read her original e-mail), but pretty much all of
her issues with her grandmother are the same as any of us close to MLM
members have had: they won't listen to logic, they refuse to hear
anything contrary to what they've been taught, and large parts of their
conversation consist of canned statements and replies taught to them by
their MLM.
<<I agree completely, Hal. My point was that my OWN MOTHER exhibits those exact traits, and has never been part of an MLM! Actually she HATES MLM's! (And, yes, "hate" is a strong word, but, honestly, that's how she feels). Now, the fact that Lori's grandmother has been a big MLM supporter all her life does indicate that much of her way of thinking is in all likelihood a direct reflection of the way of thought that is taught in MLM's. I never denied that. But, I wanted to keep the door open to the "possibility" that some of those personalicty traits could just be "because that's the way she is". I am speaking from personal experience of having a parent who has those same types of behaviors, but has never had any involvement whatsoever with an MLM. Okay, I take that back. She had a tupperware party once, when I was a young child, because she wanted some particular bowl for free. But she was a hostess, not a distributor.
Many cult experts recognize many MLMs as cults. I found this site after
finding a lot of sites like Rick Ross' cult site and was surprised to
learn this is true, but many MLMs show the same characteristics as
cults and, in Lori's case, what she describes are symptoms of cultish
MLMs.
<<The traits that Lori describes can also fall under narcisistic personality disorder, which has absolutely nothing to do with MLM's.>>
True, all those issues could have come from other sources, but at that
point, to say the issues do not come from MLMs is basically saying that
she's in MLMs, shows all the negative behaviors of MLMs, but that those
traits don't come from MLMs. It's like seeing someone walk out of a
working gold mine with sacks of ore and saying, "They probably didn't
get that gold from the mine."
<<I never said "those traits don't come from MLMs". I was simply holding the door open to the possibility that maybe...just maybe...there could be hope that she might be able to have SOME kind of relationship with her grandmother, and that maybe there is a slight possibility that SOME of those personality traits weren't brought about SOLELY because of MLM involvement. She sounded like she was very pained by her lack of relationship with her grandmother. I can relate. I was offering my own advice, just like you do. Again I will say: "Just because it's different than what someone else thinks, doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it different.">
We have had people come here as pro MLM and stay to watch, then change
their minds and help others and we know there are MLM people lurking
that may learn from us or find ways to change the system they are in to
avoid the problems we've found, so I think there are benefits to allow
MLM people on this list.
Terra, when you started posting here, you had a few good points and I
felt it was a good thing to see someone with a different point of view,
but, and this came up in a previous exchange, it seems that a lot of
your reasoning that is showing now is very much like that of MLMs.
Have you considered taking a step back and seeing if your MLM is as you
describe and making sure that you are not making money at the expense
of those in your downline as they go into debt trying to get ahead?
<<I can tell you for sure that the money I make is NOT at the expense of anyone in my downline. I make a commission based on what they SELL and NOT what they "buy for themselves", as we are not allowed to keep an "inventory"; we only keep sample pieces of our products to show at our home shows, and are not required to purchase any kind of minimum amount on a monthly basis, etc. I conduct a monthly training session that focuses on such topics as how to increase retail at their home shows, setting up their displays, how to conduct fundraisers, etc. And this training is FREE to all who attend. So, I'm not making any money from that. If you see a hole in this concept somewhere, please point it out to me; I am open-minded enough (PLEASE remember that I, too, have lost THOUSANDS of dollars in other MLM's!) to take a look at it, and consider it.
I am not pushy with my downline. And I don't press them to buy-buy-buy!
I'm asking this not to attack, but because you are showing a tendency
to not look facts in the face and accept their meaning. Is it possible
you are avoiding truths about your group that you do not want to face?
<<These "facts" that you talk about, I am assuming are "facts" based on your own personal involvement with MLM's, and we all posses our own set of facts, based on our own personal involvement. And I don't take it as an attack. I look at it as coming from someone who, like myself, has been badly burned somehow by MLM involvement. I can completely understand your defense of your position, and your cynicism. Been there, done that.
Please don't forget: I have also been badly burned by MLM's!! And I still stand by my opinion that most MLM's are not set up in such a way that the "average" distributor (if they are truly "distributors" at all. i.e. exchanging a tangible product for money) can make any money whatsoever. Of the 4 MLM's I have been a part of, only one has not gotten me into severe debt. Only one has allowed me to actually bring home money! So, I understand your cynicism. And I can speak from experience (negative ones) about 3 certain companies in particular, and would steer anyone else from taking part in them.
I will tell you that through this group, I have come to terms with one thing about my current business that I am not happy with. But, it lies in MY way that I run my business, and NOT in the way that the business "corporation" tells me I should run things. I have found, upon closer examination of my tax paperwork (thanks to a chat with PW) that I am not making as much money as I originally thought I was.
I DO make money. And I DO show a profit on my tax paperwork. But, I have found that there are some areas where I could be lessening my outgoing expenses. However, it's not due to anything that the company forces me to do. Instead, it is due to my own oversight with regard to spending money doing things that I thought were good ideas, that turned out to be costing more money than I originally realized.
For example, for my home shows, when I have a pre-home show meeting with my hostesses, I typically offer to mail out their invitations for them. This is costly! And, although I realized it costs money for me to print out labels (having to purchase the labels first, of course, cost of toner cartridges for my printer) and then mail them from the post office (the cost being postage for each invitation, not to mention the gas it takes to drive to the post office to get them there). My company and upline do not push this. It's my fault.
I give out catalogs to customers and guests at my home shows like they're water. THAT CRAP'S GONNA STOP!! ;-) When I first started my business, I 3-hole-punched my catalogs and put them in 1" 3-ring binders, which made it apparent that these were not to be taken home with each customer. But, I stopped doing that at some point...can'
I do a lot of driving to drop off my customers' home show orders once they get home. Well, my company offers direct-shipment of orders to the hostess' house. I have always had the orders shipped to my house so that I could deliver them myself, feeling that it offered a more personal touch to my customer service. Well THAT'S gonna stop also! ;-) I will offer my customer service through contacting them via telephone once I know they've received their product, to check in with them and make sure they are happy with their purchases. Once again, this is on me. I'm not directed to do this; quite the contrary. The company makes it possible for me to have things shipped directly; I choose to do otherwise.
Long distance phone calls from my home phone...why didn't I use my cell phone?? Uh, I don't really know! Laziness, I guess? I have a large minutes calling plan; I will be using my cell phone for these calls instead of my home line. Duh.
And there are other things such as these that are within my OWN control to control, that will cut down my expenses for the rest of this tax year.
So, in a nutshell, I do feel I have been helped through this group in the sense that I have been made to take a better look at the expenses I have that are going out for my business, and through my own involvement with prior MLM's, I know how NOT to treat people.
I would like to know, though (not being sarcastic; just really trying to understand), how you think I would hurt my downline. Through my involvement with Am/Quix, I know about how the tools program was a direct hurting of downline, because I was one of those victims myself for a few years. Through my involvement with MK, I know how being the "pushy recruiter" could cause a new recruit to spend THOUSANDS of dollars in inventory that sits on a shelf and is never sold. I was one of those recruits that invested thousands. Both of these things are not things my company engages in; we are taught quite the opposite, really. But, if you could explain other ways that I might be hurting my downline, I am all ears.>> Terra
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