--- In mlmsurvivorsclub@
>
> On Thursday 31 May 2007, momluvseliana wrote:
> > In my first year of college in 2000, I took a critical/logical
> > thinking writing course. I don't remember much of it because
writing
> > and language arts are not my best subjects. But I remember that I
> > found it interesting because of all the different types of
arguments
> > there were. I remember the terms ad hominem, circular arguments,
> > slippery slope, etc. I remember the instrutor saying that
> > politicians use these arguments all the time. (I am not really
into
> > politics, but upon analysis of some debates, I found it cool to
spot
> > those kind of arguments.)
>
> I've seen schools teach them in high school, but it's rare. That's
too
> bad. I'm sure that class has benefited you many times over. One
time
> info like that is a big help is every election time. I think if we
had
> a truly educated population the politicians would not get away with
a
> lot of what they do. During the upcoming election, watch to see
just
> how much of all the campaigns are based on fear ("If that person is
> elected, all these terrible things will happen and the country will
> fall apart.")
>
> > I have found it extremely interesting that MLM supporters use
these
> > logical fallacies. (Is that the right term?)
>
> Exactly right.
>
> > For example how Dawn
> > tries to attack Hal by asking if he has kids, etc, etc. in a way
> > attacking his character, and avoiding the argument at hand.
>
> Oh, yes! I'm so glad others are seeing it. While experience can
count
> for a lot, it doesn't change facts. Also, as you noticed, a lot of
> that was misdirection. Perhaps she'd make a good stage magician?
To
> me, when someone starts to pull something like that, it's a clear
> indication to me that they could NOT counter an argument and had to
> change the topic or do anything to avoid replying because they were
not
> ready to admit they could not counter the point under discussion.
To
> me, when Dawn/Terra started doing that, it was clear proof she did
not
> want to acknowledge my points because they were solid and
irrefutable.
>
> > It is
> > funny to me because after being aducated by Hal about ad hominem i
> > realized that my cousin did the same thing to me. If you don't
mind
> > I am cutting and pasting her last email to me. I am willing to be
> > that anyone would find the tone harsh and emotional. Note:
> > Honestly, the only thing I said that may have pushed her buttons
was
> > that she should research MLM's and that I could find the main
> > ingredient for cheaper.
>
> And that is likely to have pushed her buttons. Why? Remember, a
lot of
> reactions like that are below the conscious level. There is a
level of
> reasoning that many people don't see. In your case, when you said
> that, you attacked two major points of her MLM: 1) That there were
> cheaper products or cheaper ways to get them, and 2) that it should
be
> researched. She knows that, at a deeper level, but they've
brainwashed
> her to believe that they have the best products at the cheapest
price
> and that they are so wonderful that anyone who dares speak against
them
> is just bitter. Anyone daring to suggest research is saying
they're
> not the cat's meow. At some level your cousin knows this but
doesn't
> want to believe it, that's why your comment pushed her buttons and
set
> her off.
>
> > I did not say her particular MLM was a
> > fraud, because honestly I don't know much about MLM's at the
time. I
> > just read the wikepedia definition for MLM and thought she should
> > check it out. This is her last word.
> >
> > FIRST OF ALL I DONT EVEN KNOW WHY WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT
THIS...
>
> All caps. Does she "shout" on purpose? (All caps in Internet
speak is
> considered quite rude!)
Yes, the whole letter was in caps and the first 3 paragraphs were in
RED!
>
> > WHETHER YOU DIDNT INTEND TO...YOU DID. WE WOULD NEVER REACT THIS
WAY
> > IF WE DIDNT FEEL THAT. MAYBE YOU JUST DONT REALIZE THAT COMING
FROM
> > YOUR END. IF WE WERE NOT IN THE BUSINESS YET THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
> > BETTER BUT WE ALREADY ARE. ITS LIKE DO YOU THINK WE ARE STUPID
ENOUGH
> > TO JOIN THIS?
>
> Did she respond to your email immediately? This paragraph sounds
like
> an emotional rant with no editing and while she was still angry. I
> couldn't even follow what she said. Yes, you certainly did punch
her
> buttons!
>
> >
> > MY DAD WHO OWNS SEVERAL BUSINESSES LOOKED THIS UP BECAUSE I SHARE
> > EVERYTHING WITH HIM AND HE NEVER TOLD US IT MAY BE A
SCAM..WHY?..
> > HE KNOWS IM NOT STUPID ENOUGH TO DO IT IF IT WAS! AND HE SAID
HIMSELF
> > MULTILEVEL BUSINESS IS GOOD. HOW WILL A BUSINESS GROW IF THERE
ARE NO
> > DITRIBUTORS TO JOIN...
>
> Interesting. Yes, she is "not stupid enough" to do it if she
*knows* it
> is a scam. On the other hand, it doesn't occur to her she may be
the
> one being scammed, does it?
>
> As for distributors, that is one major thing I'm avoiding. I don't
want
> distributors for my business. They have this nasty habit of
expecting
> to get paid.
>
> > ITS JUST LIKE A TREE..JERED WENT TO MEETING
> > LAST NIGHT FOR MORTGAGE INVESTMENT AND STOCKS...SAME WAY OF
> > BUSINESS...MULTI LEVEL....THIS GUY WHO JOINED ZIJA WHEN IT FIRST
CAME
> > OUT HAS 500 PEOPLE HE INTRODUCED THIS TO AND SO HE GETS ACOMMISION
> > FROM ALL THOSE PEOPLE...ITS A GOOD TIME TO JOIN BECAUSE WE ARE ON
THE
> > TOP LEVEL ALREADY....MANY YEARS LATER THERE WILL BE ALOT OF
PEOPLE IN
> > THIS LIKE A TREE....THIS BUSINESS IS IN NO WAY A WAY TO MAKE
> > MONEY....ITS NOT ALOT....ITS JUST ON THE SIDE AND WHY NOT WITH A
> > GREAT PRODUCT LIKE THIS...IF MONEY IS THE GOAL TO BE IN
> > ZIJA....PEOPLE BETTER NOT JOIN THEN...OUR REASON FOR JOINING MORE
ON
> > SPREADING THE WORD FOR BETTER HEALTH RATHER THAN MAKING
COMMISION.WE
> > JUST WANTED TO HELP YOU SINCE YOU DID SAY YOU WANTED TO...BUT
OTHER
> > THAN THAT WE DIDNT REALLY CARE WHETHER YOU WERE OR NOT. WE ARE
JUST
> > HERE TO HELP PEOPLE.
>
> It's "on the side" until marks are so brainwashed it's their entire
> life. She's in, hook, line, and sinker. I'm sorry to hear that.
At
> this point, it's a waiting game and taking what chances you can to
ask
> questions. You know about logical fallacies now. If you want
more,
> look up the term in Wikipedia, since you know that site. Also look
for
> it in titles of previous posts. I wrote up a lot on it in one post
and
> someone else found a link that does a great job of explaining
them.
> The point is NOT to use them against her, but to let them help you
> frame questions that will push her to examine the facts. It's
possible
> when she can't answer questions she may start thinking about the
> situation.
>
> >
> >
> > THIS COMPANY IS MADE FROM PEOPLE THAT ARE WELL KNOW CHEMISTS AND
> > SCIENTISTS AND AWARD WINNING SCIENCE RESEARCHES..
ARE
> > NOT JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO WORK AT A LAB AND MADE THIS
DRINK....THE
> > OWNER OF THIS IS A TOP NUTRITIONISTS AND SCIENTISTS WHO NOW WORKS
> > FULL TIME WITH CHARITY AND GIVES ALL HIS EARNINGS FROM THIS TO
> > CHARITY...OBVIOUSLY YOU DIDNT RESEARCH ENOUGH SINCE YOU KNOW
NOTHING
> > ABOUT THIS COMPANY...
>
> And here's a kicker. I'll explain it in terms I know. I use Linux
> instead of Windows. Every six months or so there is a new study or
> report about how terrible Linux is and how great Microsoft is.
Then a
> few people check on the report and soon it turns out it's by a
> supposedly independent company that gets a lot of funding by
Microsoft.
>
> Anyone can get awards. They just have to start or work for a
company
> that will give them out. The trick is to check the awards and see
if
> they were awarded by a respect third party group.
>
> Another point is this is a fallacy: appeal to authority. "If this
> brainiac is working on it, it must be great!" That doesn't prove
it's
> great. It just proves one person thinks it is. True, their
> credentials count for something, but, again, check their
credentials.
>
> >
> >
> > IN AUGUST JERED AND UNCLE MIKE WILL BE FLYING TO VEGAS TO ATTEND A
> > CONVENTION IN VEGAS BECASUE THERE WILL BE A ZIJA STORE IN
VEGAS..WHY
> > HAVE DISTRIBUTORS THEN....WELL FOR BETTER COMMUNICATION AND FOR
> > PEOPLE WHO DONT LIVE IN VEGAS...EITHER WAY ITS THE SAME PRICE AND
> > WILL PROBABLY BE MORE EXPENSIVE AT THE STORE. LAST NIGHT THERE
WAS A
> > PHONE MEETING WITH THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY MADE THIS DRINK. IT WAS
> > NEAT....IT WAS NATIONWIDE SO PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER ASKED HIM
> > EVERYTHING..
>
> And I'll bet if she goes to Vegas to do this, she has to reserve
her
> room through the organization and pay for attending. They'll say
they
> don't make much through that event, but they'll probably clear
several
> million -- and that's after expenses.
>
> >
> >
> > WE KNOW THERE ARE MORINGA TREE BRANCHES AT SEAFOOD AND RANCH 99
AND
> > WEBSITES THAT SELL SEEDS TO PLANT. THIS COUNTRY IS TO FAST PACED.
IM
> > A BUSY MOM....EVERYONE WORKS....NOT EVERYONE HAS THE TIME TO
PLANT A
> > TREE AND MAKE THEIR OWN SALADS. WE CHOOSE THE DRINK BECAUSE FIRST
OF
> > ALL THE TREE BY ITSELF IS DISGUSTING. IT TASTES LIKE CRAP. NOT
> > EVERYONE WILL BE ABLE TO HANDLE THE TASTE. THE FORMULATOR
EXPLAINED
> > THATS WHY HE ADDED CANE SUGAR TO ADD FLAVOR AND TO HELP THE BODY
WITH
> > ABSORPTION TO ABSORB THE NUTRIENTS BETTER.
>
> I don't remember my chemistry (and yes, I taught Chemistry for a
year),
> but I'm not sure this is right. Anyone here know better? Or could
any
> moderators who know a doctor in the family run it by them? ;-)
>
> > HE HIMSELF REALLY VOMITED
> > BECAUSE THE FIRST THING HE DID WAS BLENDER IT PURE.IN AFRICA THEY
> > HAVE NO OPTION SO THEY HAVE TO JUST EAT THE LEAVES STRAIGHT. BUT
> > SINCE WE HAVE THIS OPTION WE CHOOSE THIS. WHY DRINK TAP WATER WHEN
> > THERE IS PURIFIED.
>
> I am trying to follow and understand just why she went off on this
> tangent and what it has to do with any of the rest. It sounds like
> programmed MLM speak and that she's just so used to it being part
of
> the spiel that she has to say it.
I think that is exactly what it is, programmed MLM speak, because I
did not ask her for any information at all. I didn't even ask her to
prove to me her "business" was legit. I just said look into it... I
also said that I would plant a tree in my backyard because it was
cheaper, and that I would eat it as a salad. (Just to piss her off
because at that point she was going on and on about how it had the
best "absorption.
questions in a previous post about believing in the product (the
mcguffin). I was almost suckered into believing in the main
ingredient. And I was going to be smart enough to get it cheaper!
>
> > AND THE WAY ZIJA IS MADE COMES FROM MORINGA TREES
> > WITHOUT THE PESTICIDES IN AN ENVIRONMENT UNDER A TENT BECAUSE THE
SUN
> > WILL KILL MOST OF THE NUTRIETNS.
>
> Again, I don't remember the science, but plants need sunlight to
grow.
> This sounds really odd. (I could be wrong.)
>
> > MY BEST FRIEND WORKS OUT AT LA
> > FITNESS HERE AND SHE INTRODUCED IT TO PEOPLE WORKING OUT AND THEY
> > SAID ITS "CONVENIENT"
>
> Oh, yes. That's an endorsement that means I need to just rush out
and
> buy it. Personally, after dealing with just a few people in
Hollyweird
> when I was pitching stories to TV, I tend to try to ignore trends
from
> that area.
>
> [confusing rambling cut out]...
That rambling was because I told her I would buy seeds from a grower
here in San Diego and plant it in my yard, and I would eat the leaves
in a salad, (purest form right, haha) and perhaps buy some moringa
powder so I can make my own drink. (Again, just to piss her off
cause she insisted Zija was the best way to consume it and get all
it's nutrients)
> > WE CAN GO ON AND ON BACK AND FORTH AND REALLY ITS A WASTE OF BOTH
OF
> > OUR TIMES. YOU SEEM LIKE YOUR ALWAYS CORRECT ABOUT THINGS AND
THAT WE
> > DONT KNOW MUCH AND YOU CANT ACCEPT THE FACT THAT EVEN IF YOU DIDNT
> > INTEND TO DO YOU THINK WE WOULD BE FEELING LIKE THIS TOWARDS YOU
NOW?
>
> Another sentence that's incredibly hard to follow, but yes, now the
ad
> hominem starts!
I think she really got pissed when I said I would buy a tree
instead. That is why she accused me of "always being correct."
(yes, I was being sarcastic to piss her off) But that was after I
politely said that there was a cheaper alternative that I thought she
would benefit from if she really BELIEVED in the product. Shit, she
got me believing in it!
>
>
> > IF YOU WANT TO RESPOND ITS OK YOU DONT HAVE TO BECAUSE WHATEVER
YOU
> > SAY I WILL SAY SOMETHING BACK ANYWAYS.NEXT TIME DONT ASK PEOPLE
HOW
> > THINGS ARE IF YOU PLAN ON JUST TRYING TO ACT LIKE YOU KNOW MORE
THAN
> > THE PEOPLE IN IT BY THINKING THEY ARE STUPID NOT KNOWING THERE ARE
> > SCAM AND ILLEGAL BUSINESSES OUT THERE....YOU MUST REMEBER YOU
EMAILED
> > US THAT AS PEOPLE ALREADY IN THE BUSINESS....
TELL
> > US TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONCERN....IF THATS CONCERN IN YOUR
> > WORLD...TO THE PEOPLE YOU TALK TO ITS MORE OFFENSIVE. I RESPECT
> > EVERYONE AND YOU KNOW THAT SO ME BEING THIS WAY NOW...THERES A
> > REASON.
>
> Ouch. You must have touched a really deep nerve. One way I put it
is
> that you can tell how on target you are with a bit of truth by how
> strongly someone fights against it. You must have hit a bullseye,
> judging by the strength of her anger in this letter.
>
> There is a lot wrong with this last paragraph, but I'm just a
little too
> worn out to even pick it apart. Nobody is saying the people are
> stupid. It's generally considered easier to con a smart person
than a
> dumb one!
>
> > Disgusting huh? This is why I am an MLM survivor. Thanks Hal, I
can
> > now spot all the MLM talk. :@)
>
> Wow! It's great to know I've done some good here, after all the
mess
> that comes up at times.
>
> Sorry for jumping in throughout but there were just so many logical
> fallacies that I could not resist using what your cousin wrote as
> examples.
>
> Hal
>
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