On Saturday 15 September 2007, NeShell Eva Patten wrote:
> I've decided that I need a better plan than just, you have so long to
> make X amount of dollars by January or he has to quit.
>
> It's amazing how just telling your story and getting support in
> return can be such a relief. It's also put a measure of starch of in
> my spine. I just don't feel like the same person who typed it all
> out. I feel like I can do this, I can even leave him if I have to, I
> just need a better plan to see this through.
>
> Hal and one other person in my life have told me that I need to give
> Arnold some kind of warning. A couple of others seem to feel that a
> sudden jerk may be what he needs. But lately I've come to feel it
> could leave him feeling abandoned, depressed and hopeless.
You're not going to like this, but it's time for tough love, both for
you and for him. I've seen situations like this many times, with MLMs,
with addicts, and with similar situations. You have to get tough and
take strong action. I'm sorry to say that, but I'm going to warn you
now that what I have to say in this post is tough love and points you
may not want to hear, but from experience, I can tell you they are true
and you have a choice: face them now or let things go on as they are
with him walking all over you and teaching your daughter that it's okay
for Daddy to hate work and to blame everyone else for his being unable
to accomplish anything and to ignore whatever Mommie thinks is
important.
I wouldn't put it that way (about the warning). You've done that.
You've done it many times. It's a tough situation and there is a
serious point that if he stops cold turkey, he'll always blame you, but
there is another side to the same situation, and someone has talked
about this when talking about addiction. That is VERY important.
I'll be honest and say that it looks like you are using our comments as
an excuse to not draw a line with him and take a stand. I may be
wrong, but I'm just saying that's what it looks like.
> I don't want him to be wrecked. I just want him to see sense and for
> us to get our lives back on track. Not the old track, but a new track
> where we can live together and pay our bills.
The only one that can get him to see sense is him. You can't do it.
There is no statement, no magic word, no special thing you can do that
will make him see sense.
> So I need a plan. I'm kind of making this up as I go along so any
> suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
>
> I figure I need a way to tell him all this where we can't be
> interrupted and where he can't run away so easily or get distracted
> by home things.
>
> I'm thinking a hotel. That I take him to a hotel for a weekend and I
> just finally lay it all on the line and tell him what I think and how
> I feel and what the consequences are if he can't get himself out.
>
> If I ask him to meet me there due to our schedules, we'll have both
> cars so neither one of us will be stranded if the other gets mad
> enough to leave. I'm thinking two nights at an AmeriSuites or
> something. Someplace where we'll have two separate spaces to sleep or
> just take a break if things get heated.
>
> I wonder if they have a room far away from the other guests?
>
> OK, so once I get him there, what do I say? Do I lay everything on
> the line with an ultimatum? Do I give him a certain amount of time to
> "detox"? Should I have some books on brainwashing on hand? He loves
> reading all those self help kinds of books that set my teeth on edge
> - Think and Grow Rich, Rich Dad Poor Dad, How to Win Friends and
> Drive Your Wife Nuts By joining an MLM. I wonder if he'll try reading
> a new type of book.
Remember, as we've said in other posts, you're dealing with an addict.
Have you ever told an alcoholic that their drinking is ruining their
family? They don't believe it. They cannot face it and deny it. It's
the most amazing thing I've ever seen. You can spell out two or three
facts to them and be ready to use those to prove what's going on and
suddenly they throw a tantrum to avoid hearing a statement they know,
down inside, will say they have a problem. Or you can lay it out so
you make point a, b, and c that are all perfectly logical and anyone
could follow, and they don't follow it. It's a complete refusal to
hear or accept what they don't want to deal with.
He won't detox or change until he sees a problem. You can talk until
you're blue in the face, but he won't see the problem unless he wants
to and right now, his behavior has proven that Primerica is what's
important to him. Perhaps what it represents to him (his dreams, not
being a wage slave, and so on) is more important than you and your
daughter are. That would be because of the lies and false hopes they
give him, not because it's a good group. He honestly believes in those
lies.
My point is that if he has to quit, he could blame you. That is an
important point, but there are other points that are as equally
important, if not more so. One is that you've been round and round
over this many times and nothing has changed. He has yet to see
anything that convinces him Primerica is not what they claim it is. He
will continue in what he's doing unless he sees a reason to change.
Did he see a reason to change when you had to move in with your Mother?
No, he didn't. Has any talk or discussion convinced him he needs to
change? No, it hasn't. Does he listen to your points? No, he
doesn't. He counters with his pre-programmed arguments.
While your idea about the hotel is a good one, and well thought out,
what worries me is that it sounds like you're using what we've said as
an excuse to back down from what you've said.
As someone else pointed out: He won't quit until he hits rock bottom.
For some, that's when they realize more money is going out than coming
in. For others it's when they see all their credit cards maxed out.
Some don't hit bottom until they lose their house and others don't hit
rock bottom until they die in deep debt. I'm not exaggerating at all.
When you, as a parent, draw a line for your kid and say, "If you do
that, I'm going to have to punish you," and she goes on and does it,
what happens if you don't punish her? She learns Mommie doesn't mean
what she says and that she can do what she wants without fear of
consequences. She begins to think a threat of punishment is just a
bluff.
If you *ever* want things to change with your husband, then you cannot,
even once, let him realize that you are not going to stand by what
you've said. His behavior is disrespectful and abusive of you. If you
tell him it's not acceptable, then let him continue, as an adult, he'll
learn much faster than your daughter, that you don't mean what you say.
Then when you really do mean it, he won't believe you. It's also
important to ask yourself, is that where you are now? Have you drawn
the line before and backed down? If so, then he won't believe you'll
stand firm on the January deadline.
I know. I used to be on the other end of the story, in a position more
like his than yours. People wonder how I can be so hard on people with
problems that don't face them. It's because I was there. It wasn't
with an MLM and it wasn't with drugs or illegal behavior, but I have
been the one that refused to listen to reason or change and that is one
of the reasons I know that if you don't stand by your deadlines, he'll
use that to keep walking all over you.
By now you're thinking that leaves you in a tough position. You've
given him a deadline and now you've heard from me to keep it but that
keeping it can ruin everything. Let's look at that and see what we can
work out so there's a way to stand up for yourself.
There are several possibilities. 1) He may realize you're right and
quit willingly. 2) He may decide he wants to stay and quit and realize
later you were right. 3) Same as #2, but he keeps blaming you. 4) He
leaves and follows Primerica, possibly so one day he's wealthy and
comes back, or so he can "show you who's right."
If he does #1, #2, or #4, you're okay. The only problem is #3. What do
you do if he quits and seems to blame you? In this case, if he quits
and does not tell you he realizes he was wrong, watch very carefully so
you know if you're dealing with possibility #2 or #3. If you have any
hints of it being #3, get him some other GOOD books about money
management. Maybe "The Millionaire Next Door." It points out how most
millionaires in this country are not what people expect, including the
example of the millionaire janitor. He could read about investments
from anything published by The Motley Fool. I can't think of others
right off, but the point would be to let him think about finances
without thinking about the crap he's been taught. The "Rich Dad, Poor
Dad" series is especially to be avoided. The guy is an idiot and a
fake and has been debunked on a number of websites.
The idea is, if he does blame you, to redirect him. To let him keep
thinking about money and finances, but to get him to read solid books
on the subject. Perhaps join the American Association of Independent
Investors or other legit groups that can help him explore finances.
Then, after a month or two, when he's had time to detox so he doesn't
hear the same Primerica programming day after day, that would be the
time to start talking about it. Ask him if he's realized he can be
successful in other ways and slowly bring up points that he may now
realize were crap.
Personally, I'll be surprised, at this point, if he leaves Primerica. I
think the main reason he'd drop it is because he's too lazy to find a
place to live and pay his own way. If that's the case, Primerica is
the least of your problems because he either always was or has been
turned into someone who just doesn't want to earn his way in life. At
that point, you may find out Primerica is just a symptom of a bigger
problem.
> Maybe I should just give him my posts from here.
No. First, he'll be upset that you're talking to others, second, he'll
say we're putting ideas in your head and this is all our fault. It'll
also alert him about your concerns in such a way that he won't listen
to anything else you say and will, instead, respond with his
pre-programmed responses.
> But once it's all out in the open, how do we go home with it all
> hanging over our heads? If we can't reach a common resolution how do
> we live together, knowing that it will end?
>
> Should I even give him a warning? Should I just plan it all myself
> and have a place for him to go should the inevitable happen?
No. He has to face the consequences of what he has to do. He has to go
through finding a place and doing the work to pay rent and keep it up.
> Find a
> place for him, give him the keys, tell him he's on his own and walk
> away. Or do I let him do that himself? If I wait for him to do it, we
> might end up right back where we started.
You'd have to work with your Mom on that one. Be ready to pack up his
stuff and change the locks. It may take him coming home one day to
find his clothes in boxes and suitcases and the locks changed to make
him realize that you are serious and to show him what he can lose if he
refuses to pay attention to you.
> I know I'm planning just a way to tell him what I think but why does
> it feel like I'm planning the end of our relationship altogether?
You are preparing for the possibility of the end of a relationship. You
have no control over him and no control over what he chooses. I've
seen, many times, cases where one person is an idiot and walks out of a
great relationship because they're too blind, obsessed, or dumb to see
what they have. It takes two for a relationship and no matter what
you're doing and how hard you work, if he is not willing to treat you
with respect and to hold up his end, then he's opted out of it. At
that point you have a choice: you can stay in one where you do all the
work, which will lead you to a point where you lose respect for
yourself and begin to resent yourself and him, or you can say, "I will
not be in a relationship with someone who is not making the effort to
be my equal."
If you aren't ready to end it, then you're expecting to stay in it,
which means if he doesn't respond to you, you are staying in it under
his terms and only his terms. At that point he's learned that you can
threaten and set deadlines, but all he has to do is pretend to listen,
then do his thing, and you'll always be there.
You've done what you should: You've stood up for yourself and your
daughter and have drawn a line. It's up to him if he's going to be a
man or a Primerica drone. You can't make his choice for him.
> I guess because part of me feels that he may just choose Primerica
> over me and then it will be over. That's a sad and scary thought and
> I guess I have to prepare myself for the possibility but damn.
If he does choose Pimerica over you, do you really want to be with
someone like that? You're better off with no man than with a
brainwashed one who is the puppet of his MLM sponsors, aren't you?
Yes, you have to prepare yourself for that possibility.
It would be great if he realizes you're right, quits it, then focuses on
his own job, saving money, and moving out of your Mom's house, but
that's only one of the possibilities he has.
I'm concerned, overall, that even if he leaves Primerica, that he has an
attitude that indicates he just doesn't like working for a living.
Watch him and see if he keeps some of the same attitudes without it. I
have a strong hunch that Primerica is only the symptom and that he
needs some long term counseling from a professional.
I know I'm being harsh, but from what you've said, he's a tough problem
and, unfortunately, the only way to handle a tough problem is to be
tough.
Live Long and Prosper, TrekkieBear!
Hal
P.S. Now, for the others, those that lurk and every now and then flame
me for being nasty and negative, I'm sure many of you think I'm being
nasty now. If so, then let's deal with it now. I'm speaking from
years of experience and sometimes tough love is the only thing that has
a chance of working. Don't be a coward and say nothing, then months
later say, "You were nasty to NeShell months ago and now you're doing
it again now." That's called dirty fighting. Deal with one topic at a
time and don't dredge up old issues. If you're going to say I'm being
nasty to her, say so now. If you don't speak up when you have the
chance, shut up forever.
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